The Wild Bunch

Subject: The Wild Bunch Mon 09 Jul 2007, 7:20 pm

Where is the best place to begin to learn about Robert L. Parker (B. Cassidy), Harry A. Longabaugh (the 'Sundance Kid') and the Wild Bunch .... can someone please advise? I am really as interested in the women surrounding these dapper outlaws as in the men themselves, but ....

Have to confess that I only ever saw bits and pieces of the movie, 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,' starring P. Newman and R. Redford Rolling Eyes

Would this be considered more than just an intertaining flick, based loosely upon fact?

Also, can anyone share impressions of the wrok of historian, Richard F. Selcer? I have browsed through his book, 'Hell's Half Acre,' .... have had it sitting on my shelf for some years now, but now am at the point of diving in. This section and its period in Fort Worth are of interest to me.

Direction would be appreciated.

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Joined : 27 May 2007 Posts : 5

Etta Place is the name mentioned as the woman/mistress associated with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

A rather interesting "schoolmarm" who was said to be the mistress of the Sundance Kid.....but also it says she was the mistress of both, Butch and Sundance.

Her history is colorful and full of mystery. She was described as "beautiful, an excellent horsewoman and an outstanding rifle shot." I suppose a pretty good companion for a couple of outlaws.

It's said she was the 2nd woman to ride into their camp. I wonder who the 1st woman was.

Here's the story that answers some of the questions and leaves a lot more unanswered:

http://ndnd.essortment.com/ettaplacebutch_rnmb.htm

Remember the movie? The part of Etta was played by Katherine Ross.

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Tue 10 Jul 2007, 10:31 pm

Thanks, Cee Cee. I never have seen the movie in whole, but hope to watch it over the next couple of days. Did you like it?

I posted something about Etta Place under the 'mysteries of Texas' catgory, but she is really who I'm after in inquiring about the Wild Bunch, anyway Smile

Wikipedia offered a nice summary of what little is known of her life and her disappearance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etta_Place

According to this article, there is no evidence that Etta ever worked as a schoolteacher. I wonder from whence this rumor -- if it was, indeed, that -- arose. More likely, it seems, she may have been employed by a bordello .... in Fort Worth or in San Antonio. Also, it states that her true name may never have been known.

Wish we could find out more about her Question

Etta is not the only woman who 'disappeared' after living her young-adult days on the wrong side of the law or society. 'The Rose of Cimarron' was another, I believe. In some cases, the identities of these former prostitutes, cattle rustlers and gang molls were fiercely protected by those close to them after they began leading 'respectable' lives.

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Joined : 27 May 2007 Posts : 5

It looks like the "stories" of Etta Place do go all over the place.....even to her name. It was said to be Emily originally...but became Etta in S.America because of the Spanish pronounciation of it.
And Place....well I think it said that was the maiden name of Sundance's mother...and the last name of an alias that he sometime used. That's puts out the question of....were they married or not?
Oh well....speculation abounds, but we'll never know.

I don't think the Wild Bunch was lacking for female companionship. A few names pop up as having been in their company over a period of time.
Maude Davis, Laura Bullion, Annie Rogers, Rose Morgan, and the Basset sisters, Ann and Josie.

Yes, I've seen the movie numerous times. It was a movie made for entertainment and not particularly historically correct.
Robert Redford and Paul Newman (in their younger days) were "easy on the eyes" and provided ample entertainment to most female movie goers.
The theme song of the movie: "Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head" by B.J.Thomas won an Academy Award.

Trailblazer Joined : 29 May 2007 Posts : 88

Thinking of movies made for entertainment and without much eye for historical accuracy - and with Robert Redford at taht - I nominate JEREMIAH JOHNSON, based (loosely - VERY loosely) on the saga of mountain-man "Liver Eating" Johnson.

Perhaps "inspired by one incident in Johnson's career and that misrepresented" would be closer...

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Thu 12 Jul 2007, 5:25 pm

I also enjoy that movie, Clyde, though of course, it is bittersweet. Kind of like life, huh?

I had thought, though, that 'Jeremiah Johnson' was based upon a generic mountain man; had no idea that the plot was even generally traced to a specific man. Where can one learn more about this 'Liver Eating Johnson?'

Thanks,

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Thu 12 Jul 2007, 9:29 pm

I've seen both those movies when I was still a kid, I'm probably due to see them again too.

That Etta Place was really beautiful. It's kinda of hard to imagine she may have been a " lady of the evening ". I really love mysteries like this so you guys let us know if you find out where she ended up.

Madelyn

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Thu 12 Jul 2007, 9:30 pm

BTW where do YOU keep going Holly? Razz

Trailblazer Joined : 29 May 2007 Posts : 88

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Fri 13 Jul 2007, 12:21 pm

Sorry, Cee Cee ... I missed this post that you'd placed here.

So, we may have even another Emily in our Etta.

I am not familiar enough yet with her story -- and the few reliable sources tracing it -- to form an opinion of where Etta Place came from and where she went. Of course, it was common for ladies such as Etta *may* have been working as when she met the Wild Bunch to shelter their true identities beneath pseudonyms or 'stage names.' Protective and sometimes glamorous (and often humorous for their patrons -- 'Baby Doll' and 'Peek-a-Boo') this practice may have been for these women, but it also created a greater-than-the-average challenge for those attempting to trace their movements after many years.

Did you ever hear the sad story of Lottie Johl, who provided 'comfort' to the miners in Bodie, California? She arrived in that rough settlement in about 1882, and was lucky enough to find true love in the caring arms of a German immigrant. Lottie and Eli Johl were married not long after the young woman first set foot in Bodie. Eli treasured his bride: building her a lovely new home, encouraging her to develop her artistic talents, being always present as her stalwart companion. But the 'polite' society which began to take root in Bodie would hear nothing of accepting Lottie into their company. Because of her past, she was ostracized by the community until her death, despite Eli Johl's efforts to create a climate of understanding on her behalf.

Very little was known of Lottie's life prior to her coming to Bodie till one day in 1992 .... a century after her passing. A woman touring the California state park -- which has since been established around this old mining town -- walked into one of the buildings there and spied an antique portrait, the subject of which which she recognized. It was the woman's great-great-grandmother, and the portrait also was one which had been preserved at the park of Lottie Johl. Lottie, it then was learned, had left behind an illegitimate daughter to the care of her parents in Iowa, before setting off for the rough mining camps of Bodie. Beyond time, this broken family circle finally was mended in a most unusual way.

So, maybe we should never lose hope in the possibility of tracking down some of these 'soiled doves!' *

Hmmm ... Etta Place likely was somewhere in Texas during the census year of 1900, though likely beneath another name. Do you know if anyone has searched for her there (surely someone has, and evidently came up with a blank)? This is the type of search which needs as many eyes trained on it as possible. Linda?

Thanks, Cee Cee.

Holly

*The information related here about Mrs. Lottie Johl was taken from 'Soiled Doves,' by Anne Seagraves. For anyone seeking well-written, well-researched, popular histories of women in the American West, the several offerings by this author can't be beat!
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Fri 13 Jul 2007, 3:23 pm

So much of the story is true .... especially (and sadly) regarding The Swan and her death.

Some people have and perhaps do consider raw bison liver to be a delicacy. But looking back above, these perhaps were not the source of the livers partaken of by Johnson? No, I can see that they were not silent

Clyde, I was reading the other day in Ed Syre's 'Backroads of Texas' that the trail drives extending northward from Milton Favor's ranch near Shafter (in the Big Bend and from the 1850s onward [?]), were the inspiration for the TV-Western series, 'Rawhide.' Have you heard of this? Wikipedia mentions nothing in this regard (unless the Favor drives were a source for the movie, 'Cattle Empire'):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawhide_(TV_series)

That such details might not have made it into the Wikipedia article is inconclusive, of course Wink

Thanks!

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Trailblazer Joined : 29 May 2007 Posts : 88

I've heard the claim. I have no idea as to whether it is correct or not (that is - inspiration for RAWHIDE).

And no - the livers that gave Johnson his sobriquet didn't come from any sort of game excpt human. Mostly Absaroka, but allegedly also one Lakota. That was during the Sioux War of the 1860s, when Johnson was a civilian scout, working with Absaroka (with which tribe he'd comproised and settled his difficulties).

Note - prepare to have any PC feelings severely offended if you get a copy of the Thorpe book. Inidans are routinely called "Red (N-word)". For instance.

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Sun 15 Jul 2007, 2:00 pm

I'm sure that the Indians had their own offensive sobriquets to level at Johnson -- far worse than even 'Liver-Eating,' though traveled by the ear alone. In fact -- unlike the role played by Redford -- it appears that the real Johnson fought many of his battles through offending Neutral

causing tummy-aches all around.

Thorpe's narration ... well, that would seem to be secondary, Mr. Howard.

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Sun 15 Jul 2007, 2:06 pm

Re: Miss Etta ... As the Pinkerton Detectives found evidence (what was it?) that she was missing her family while in Argentina, this causes me to wonder whether Etta Place actually was working in a bordello when she first encountered members of the Wild Bunch. Many (but not all, of course) of the girls who cast their lots with these houses of ill repute did not have kin to pine for or return to.

Holly
_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves

Subject: Re: The Wild Bunch Sun 15 Jul 2007, 2:11 pm

Madelyn ... there are so many lovely photos which are begging to grace cyberspace that it is hard to settle on just one. Hope you like this antique dove Smile

_________________
The woman of the frontier made the best of her situation, for she had developed a respect for the land that gave her freedom as well as the courage to live in it.
~~~ from the perspective of Anne Seagraves